Re: Cingular to Replace ALL TDMA customers' Phones this summer?

[DL]

Oh yes, that would suck. I live in a TDMA region in Florida and my contract
doesn't expire until March 2004. I got my first phone in March 2002. In
April of this year, the phone died and was out of warranty, so I was told
that I would be better off buying a new phone, which ended up costing $150.
I don't want to have to pay for a phone until after my contract expires...



"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hey all...
>
> Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>
> I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for something new when they
> upgrade their technology during a contract... I want a free
> phone....haha. Thoughts? Confirmations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt

[Marilyn Ratcheson Stern]

On 26 Jun 2003 20:32:19 GMT, (Brevdude) wrote:

>that doesn't surprise me. Here in Florida they're doing the same thing. Just
>got an early upgrade to my GSM phone

Were you told your TDMA phone would stop working this summer?

-Marilyn

[Dental\(stud\)]

This won't happen until 2008 (when they shut off TDMA in Detroit.) This
came from the CS people at a Cingular store in Novi.


"Marilyn Ratcheson Stern" > wrote in message
...
> On 26 Jun 2003 10:07:36 -0700, (Matt) wrote:
>
> >Hey all...
> >
> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> >only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work.
>
> So did your source say if Cingular customers from areas that are still
> TDMA will no longer be able to roam in Detroit? Or do the Detroit
> people with TDMA phones have (or will get) a special IRDB that simply
> will stop working? While people from other places will still be able
> to get a TDMA signal in Detroit? I'm having a hard time envisualizing
> something like this before the GSM infrastructure is more built up.
>
> -Marilyn

[Matt]

Hey....

Oh, believe me -- I know the cingular reps here are not that
knowledgeable. I knwo more than they do -- i was just sharing with
you guys that they told me GSM would take over this summer and All
TDMA phones won't work -- they implied that tdma won't exist on
Cingular anymore...

Oh yea, now for some more comic relief. I asked the rep about my
internet option for my tdma - to use as a wireless modem. He said --
well, they don't have that option yet -- you have to wait for the new
phones coming out -- they have the technology. All you can do it
browse on your phone screen... haha -- dork!

Thanks,

Matt

[Marilyn Ratcheson Stern]

On 27 Jun 2003 05:51:05 -0700, (Matt) wrote:

>
> Oh yea, now for some more comic relief. I asked the rep about my
>internet option for my tdma - to use as a wireless modem. He said --
>well, they don't have that option yet -- you have to wait for the new
>phones coming out -- they have the technology. All you can do it
>browse on your phone screen... haha -- dork!
>

Ok, since I've used a TDMA phone as a wireless modem on Cingular,
clearly we need to take this rep's "information" with a large grain of
salt. Don't think I'll worry about Cingular turning off my V60t
anytime soon.

[cledus]

Are you certain that the CSR didn't say "Cinular will stop selling TDMA
phones"? That sounds more plausible. My bet is that they will continue to
operate TDMA networks but phase out offering TDMA-only phones in favor of
newer GSM phones.

"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hey all...
>
> Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>
> I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for something new when they
> upgrade their technology during a contract... I want a free
> phone....haha. Thoughts? Confirmations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
>

[Robert Saville]

If you look at the current GSM map, you will find the GSM coverage quite
unsatisfactory for anyone who travels to anywhere but the very big cities
and interstates. Cingular will loose hundreds of thousands of customers
(including me) if they force us to GSM

Bob

"Marilyn Ratcheson Stern" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Jun 2003 05:51:05 -0700, (Matt) wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh yea, now for some more comic relief. I asked the rep about my
> >internet option for my tdma - to use as a wireless modem. He said --
> >well, they don't have that option yet -- you have to wait for the new
> >phones coming out -- they have the technology. All you can do it
> >browse on your phone screen... haha -- dork!
> >
>
> Ok, since I've used a TDMA phone as a wireless modem on Cingular,
> clearly we need to take this rep's "information" with a large grain of
> salt. Don't think I'll worry about Cingular turning off my V60t
> anytime soon.

[Steven Scharf]

(Matt) wrote in message >...
> Hey all...
>
> Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>
> I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for something new when they
> upgrade their technology during a contract... I want a free
> phone....haha. Thoughts? Confirmations?

I suspect that Cingular has instructed their reps to promote
GSM and discourage TDMA. There is just no way that Cingular
is going to turn off TDMA that soon, especially given the
present GSM coverage, the soon to be a reality number
portability, and the number of free GSM phones that they's
have to give out to their existing customers to keep them
from changing to a carrier with a free phone.

AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
(rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
adopted GAIT.

[Iranian Warrior]

I work for Cingular and all phones will be GSM by end of 2004.right now in
MDC (Memphis distribution center) we have some TDMA phones but mostly are
GSM... we don't order any more TDMA phone.
"Steven Scharf" > wrote in message
om...
> (Matt) wrote in message
>...
> > Hey all...
> >
> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> > only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> > they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> > or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
> >
> > I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for something new when they
> > upgrade their technology during a contract... I want a free
> > phone....haha. Thoughts? Confirmations?
>
> I suspect that Cingular has instructed their reps to promote
> GSM and discourage TDMA. There is just no way that Cingular
> is going to turn off TDMA that soon, especially given the
> present GSM coverage, the soon to be a reality number
> portability, and the number of free GSM phones that they's
> have to give out to their existing customers to keep them
> from changing to a carrier with a free phone.
>
> AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
> success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
> someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
> trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
> (rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
> adopted GAIT.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on 29 Jun 2003 15:50:33
-0700, (Steven Scharf) wrote:

>AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
>success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
>someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
>trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
>(rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
>adopted GAIT.

Yet another 'expert' statement on GSM? While AT&T has not adopted GAIT per
se, it is offering a combo GSM+TDMA phone with much the same functionality,
the Siemens S46. <http://www.attws.com/mmode/devices/s46.jhtml>

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Steven M. Scharf]

But they're not forcing all the TDMA subscribers to change to GSM
are they? This would be a very bad business decision, especially with
number portability looming on the horizon. Cingular has the most to
lose from number portability, especially in their areas that are presently
GSM-only. OTOH, if there are several GAIT phones to choose from,
then Cingular won't have such a problem in they're TDMA+GSM+AMPS
areas.

"Iranian Warrior" > wrote in message
...
> I work for Cingular and all phones will be GSM by end of 2004.right now in
> MDC (Memphis distribution center) we have some TDMA phones but mostly are
> GSM... we don't order any more TDMA phone.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"Jud Hardcastle" > wrote in message

> Well, of course you can't go by the "current" GSM map once Cingular does
> the cutover nationwide. If they truely convert 90% of their Cingular-
> owned TDMA network a new map will be a combination of the current GSM
> map and the current TDMA Preferred map, less 10% of the their own
> coverage and less any TDMA partners reflected in the Preferred map.
> That could be a BIG "less" since you can't tell how much of the
> Preferred map is partners.
>
> Any way you look at it Cingular's total GSM coverage will be less than
> their current total GSM+TDMA coverage. A lot of small carriers away
> from the big cities ARE NOT going to convert unless they absolutely have
> to due to shortage of TDMA/AMPS phones. With the two big TDMA carriers
> gone the manuf. will certainly make less TDMA models but I doubt if they
> stop making ANY TDMA phones as long as there is a market. So those
> small carriers may be TDMA/AMPS for a LONG time.

Not only that, there are some areas of the country that have no GSM coverage
at all. I was just up in Alaska. TDMA is the most popular digital system,
followed
by CDMA in the mid to large towns. AMPS is everywhere. GSM is non-existent.
At least with a GAIT phone you could roam on TDMA and AMPS and just pay
for roaming, not too unacceptable for occasional use though you're better
off with
something like AT&T Single Rate or Verizon America's Choice.

> The only way for anyone on Cingular to get ALL the coverage is to use a
> GAIT phone. But I have a nagging worry about that. Everyone has said
> that Cingular has not ordered any more GAIT phones other than the 6340i
> and the T62u. That doesn't sound like Cingular is planning to offer the
> GAIT plan after the cutover. They could pull the plan and even stop
> producing the special GAIT IRDB--instead they could just download the
> new GSM based IRDB to the GAIT phones turning them into GSM models with
> nothing the owner could do to stop it. That would effectively make them
> either reject TDMA carriers totally or make them non-preferred and very
> costly to roam on. If that happens I'll probably be looking for another
> carrier myself since I'm in those small-carrier areas a lot.

I doubt that they'd do this, they'd lose thousands of customers with such
a move.

> Horrid thought--Quite a few existing GSM phones don't even have
> AMPS/analog.

Uh, how about none. Only GAIT phones have both GSM and AMPS.
Nokia once had an "analog sleeve" for one of their GSM phones but
this was not widely sold or supported (Pac Bell, now Cingular, did not
sell or support it).

>If Cingular goes GSM-only without either TDMA *or* AMPS I
> will have no choice but to switch immediately.

I don't think Cingular is turning off TDMA any time soon, they are just
no longer going to sign up new TDMA/AMPS subscribers. While this will
affect the quantity of new sign-ups, it shouldn't affect existing customers
for several more years.

> To the average Joe a phone is a phone and if Cingular says "we're giving
> you a new phone" he'll jump for it without even being aware that his
> roaming ability just took a major hit. My sister in Austin (on ATTWS)
> just had to get a new phone--and more minutes. The ATTWS salesperson
> offered her this new "perfect for you" plan and really "great" free
> phone. It was a GSM-only phone--no TDMA, no AMPS. If she hadn't run
> the model number by me she would have instantly lost coverage in many of
> the very outlying areas she needs for work. Quite a few such "cellular-
> technology-unaware" people are going to get really "bit" before this
> conversion thing is over.

AT&T will usually let you switch back to TDMA+AMPS if you are
dissatisfied with their GSM service, even after the trial period, and even
thought they'll take a hit on the cost of the subsidized phone.

> Am I missing something? Surely Cingular mgmt wouldn't be so dense as to
> go GSM-only when all they'd have to do is continue offering a GAIT plan
> and GAIT phones as long as they're needed by SOME customers.

Hey, Cingular in California is GSM only. They do not offer a GAIT phone.
The coverage is horrid, consiseintly ranked the worst coverage by
every survey and study on the subject (even worse than Nextel, and that's
not easy!). So don't think for a moment that any company is incapable of
being dense.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In > on 29 Jun 2003
15:50:33
> -0700, (Steven Scharf) wrote:
>
> >AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
> >success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
> >someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
> >trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
> >(rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
> >adopted GAIT.
>
> Yet another 'expert' statement on GSM? While AT&T has not adopted GAIT
per
> se, it is offering a combo GSM+TDMA phone with much the same
functionality,
> the Siemens S46. <http://www.attws.com/mmode/devices/s46.jhtml>

The S46 does not have AMPS. AMPS support is essential to cover holes
in urban areas, and to provide coverage at all in most rural areas. No one
who bothers to research the issue is going to choose an S46 over a 6340i
or T62U; there is no upside in doing so.

It'll be decades before AMPS coverage is no longer essential. When GM
switches On-Star off of AMPS onto digital, and the highway call boxes
go digital, then maybe it'll be time to bid AMPS a fond farewell.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
2003 02:03:16 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"Jud Hardcastle" > wrote in message

>> Horrid thought--Quite a few existing GSM phones don't even have
>> AMPS/analog.
>
>Uh, how about none. Only GAIT phones have both GSM and AMPS.
>Nokia once had an "analog sleeve" for one of their GSM phones but
>this was not widely sold or supported (Pac Bell, now Cingular, did not
>sell or support it).

Yet another 'expert' statement? The Ericsson CF888 had both GSM and AMPS.

>Hey, Cingular in California is GSM only. They do not offer a GAIT phone.

True and true.

>The coverage is horrid, ...

False. Coverage is good in major metro areas and along major highways.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
2003 02:07:32 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In > on 29 Jun 2003 15:50:33
>> -0700, (Steven Scharf) wrote:
>>
>> >AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
>> >success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
>> >someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
>> >trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
>> >(rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
>> >adopted GAIT.
>>
>> Yet another 'expert' statement on GSM? While AT&T has not adopted GAIT per
>> se, it is offering a combo GSM+TDMA phone with much the same functionality,
>> the Siemens S46. <http://www.attws.com/mmode/devices/s46.jhtml>
>
>The S46 does not have AMPS.

True, but then the original 6340 didn't either. Regardless, you didn't say
AMPS -- you said only GSM and TDMA. In other words, you're scrambling rather
than admit that you were wrong.

>AMPS support is essential to cover holes
>in urban areas,

We disagree. What a shock. Not.

>and to provide coverage at all in most rural areas.

That's important for some people, but not for others. (My daughter, for
example, has no need for AMPS. Likewise all her friends.)

>No one
>who bothers to research the issue is going to choose an S46 over a 6340i
>or T62U; there is no upside in doing so.

I disagree -- since ATTWS offers only the S46, it's a good choice that has the
benefits of both GSM (e.g., GPRS) and legacy TDMA in the same handset.

>It'll be decades before AMPS coverage is no longer essential. ...

Perhaps a decade, and only for some people, a number that will be ever
dwindling. As the supply of handsets dries up, even rural carriers will be
forced to upgrade.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In nk.net> on Mon, 30
Jun
> 2003 02:03:16 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:
>
> >"Jud Hardcastle" > wrote in message
>
> >> Horrid thought--Quite a few existing GSM phones don't even have
> >> AMPS/analog.
> >
> >Uh, how about none. Only GAIT phones have both GSM and AMPS.
> >Nokia once had an "analog sleeve" for one of their GSM phones but
> >this was not widely sold or supported (Pac Bell, now Cingular, did not
> >sell or support it).
>
> Yet another 'expert' statement? The Ericsson CF888 had both GSM and AMPS.

There are no GSM phone available for sale from any carrier that include
AMPS, other than the GAIT phones. The CF888 is obsolete and not
being sold. The Nokia analog sleeve is no longer being sold, nor is the
phone
it attached to.

You can find some old CF888 phones on eBay, but if you use it with Cingular
in California any AMPS coverage will be via a credit card at a very high per
minute rate.


> >Hey, Cingular in California is GSM only. They do not offer a GAIT phone.
>
> True and true.
>
> >The coverage is horrid, ...
>
> False. Coverage is good in major metro areas and along major highways.

Not in Silicon Valley, the Peninsula, San Francisco, Marin, or the East Bay.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
2003 03:33:58 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
>> 2003 02:03:16 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>> >Uh, how about none. Only GAIT phones have both GSM and AMPS.
>> >Nokia once had an "analog sleeve" for one of their GSM phones but
>> >this was not widely sold or supported (Pac Bell, now Cingular, did not
>> >sell or support it).
>>
>> Yet another 'expert' statement? The Ericsson CF888 had both GSM and AMPS.
>
>There are no GSM phone available for sale from any carrier that include
>AMPS, other than the GAIT phones. The CF888 is obsolete and not
>being sold. The Nokia analog sleeve is no longer being sold, nor is the
>phone it attached to.
>
>You can find some old CF888 phones on eBay, but if you use it with Cingular
>in California any AMPS coverage will be via a credit card at a very high per
>minute rate.

Apology accepted.

>> >The coverage is horrid, ...
>>
>> False. Coverage is good in major metro areas and along major highways.
>
>Not in Silicon Valley, the Peninsula, San Francisco, Marin, or the East Bay.

Rubbish. (How long to you intend to keep up the personal vendetta?)

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:42:46 -0600,
"John Cummings" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...

>> True, but then the original 6340 didn't either.

>The original Nokia 6340 has AMPS. What it lacks, compared to the 6340i, is
>800 MHz GSM. ...

I stand corrected -- thanks!

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Iranian Warrior]

yes cingular will force to replace all TDMA with GSM phones. of course there
is selected Motorola and Eriscon phones are available that work with both
GSM and TDMA system
"Steven M. Scharf" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> But they're not forcing all the TDMA subscribers to change to GSM
> are they? This would be a very bad business decision, especially with
> number portability looming on the horizon. Cingular has the most to
> lose from number portability, especially in their areas that are presently
> GSM-only. OTOH, if there are several GAIT phones to choose from,
> then Cingular won't have such a problem in they're TDMA+GSM+AMPS
> areas.
>
> "Iranian Warrior" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I work for Cingular and all phones will be GSM by end of 2004.right now
in
> > MDC (Memphis distribution center) we have some TDMA phones but mostly
are
> > GSM... we don't order any more TDMA phone.
>
>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on Mon, 30 Jun 2003
04:18:55 GMT, "Iranian Warrior" > wrote:

>yes cingular will force to replace all TDMA with GSM phones.

I'm *very* skeptical. Your proof?

>of course there
>is selected Motorola and Eriscon phones are available that work with both
>GSM and TDMA system

That's GAIT. There's one such Sony Ericsson phone, and one such Nokia phone,
but no such Motorola phone.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Steven M. Scharf]

"Iranian Warrior" > wrote in message
...
> yes cingular will force to replace all TDMA with GSM phones. of course
there
> is selected Motorola and Eriscon phones are available that work with both
> GSM and TDMA system

Well as long as Cingular will provide a 6340i or a T62U at no charge to
everyone that they force off of TDMA to GSM, then I guess it'sokay.

Surely they don't expect to force customers to pay extra in order to
receive the same quality of coverage that they get with TDMA+AMPS.
This would almost guarantee massive churn. Cingular in California has
very high churn with their GSM only service because the coverage is
very poor without TDMA or AMPS back-up.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In nk.net> on Mon, 30
Jun
> 2003 03:33:58 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:
>
> >"John Navas" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> In nk.net> on Mon,
30 Jun
> >> 2003 02:03:16 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" >
wrote:
>
> >> >Uh, how about none. Only GAIT phones have both GSM and AMPS.
> >> >Nokia once had an "analog sleeve" for one of their GSM phones but
> >> >this was not widely sold or supported (Pac Bell, now Cingular, did not
> >> >sell or support it).
> >>
> >> Yet another 'expert' statement? The Ericsson CF888 had both GSM and
AMPS.
> >
> >There are no GSM phone available for sale from any carrier that include
> >AMPS, other than the GAIT phones. The CF888 is obsolete and not
> >being sold. The Nokia analog sleeve is no longer being sold, nor is the
> >phone it attached to.
> >
> >You can find some old CF888 phones on eBay, but if you use it with
Cingular
> >in California any AMPS coverage will be via a credit card at a very high
per
> >minute rate.
>
> Apology accepted.
>
> >> >The coverage is horrid, ...
> >>
> >> False. Coverage is good in major metro areas and along major highways.
> >
> >Not in Silicon Valley, the Peninsula, San Francisco, Marin, or the East
Bay.
>
> Rubbish. (How long to you intend to keep up the personal vendetta?)

It is not a vendetta and it is not personal. It is documented by many
impartial
sources.

You on the other hand, simply reply with your standard non-answer of
"Rubbish" or "Not True" without ever providing any references of evidence.
Sometimes I wonder why you continue to do this; many people, not
just me, have taken you to task for your irrational statements but you
persist in making a fool of yourself. What is your hidden agenda here?

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In nk.net> on Mon, 30
Jun
> 2003 02:07:32 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:
>
> >"John Navas" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> In > on 29 Jun 2003
15:50:33
> >> -0700, (Steven Scharf) wrote:
> >>
> >> >AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
> >> >success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
> >> >someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
> >> >trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
> >> >(rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
> >> >adopted GAIT.
> >>
> >> Yet another 'expert' statement on GSM? While AT&T has not adopted GAIT
per
> >> se, it is offering a combo GSM+TDMA phone with much the same
functionality,
> >> the Siemens S46. <http://www.attws.com/mmode/devices/s46.jhtml>
> >
> >The S46 does not have AMPS.
>
> True, but then the original 6340 didn't either. Regardless, you didn't
say
> AMPS -- you said only GSM and TDMA. In other words, you're scrambling
rather
> than admit that you were wrong.

The 6340 lacked 850Mhz GSM. It supported 800Mhz & 1900 Mhz TDMA, and
800Mhz AMPS. It was a short-lived product, quickly replaced by the 6340i.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
2003 14:44:00 GMT, self-proclaimed "sfbacellexpert" "Steven M. Scharf"
> wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...

>> Rubbish. (How long to you intend to keep up the personal vendetta?)
>
>It is not a vendetta and it is not personal. ...

Whatever you say, Steven.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Mon, 30 Jun
2003 14:39:50 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"Iranian Warrior" > wrote in message
...

>> yes cingular will force to replace all TDMA with GSM phones. of course there
>> is selected Motorola and Eriscon phones are available that work with both
>> GSM and TDMA system
>
>Well as long as Cingular will provide a 6340i or a T62U at no charge to
>everyone that they force off of TDMA to GSM, then I guess it'sokay.

It's not going to happen anytime soon, but if and when it does, I expect the
phones *will* be free as long as customers sign up for new 2-year contracts.

>Surely they don't expect to force customers to pay extra in order to
>receive the same quality of coverage that they get with TDMA+AMPS.

They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.

>This would almost guarantee massive churn. Cingular in California has
>very high churn with their GSM only service ...

Really? Based on what? Your intuition?

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John S.]

>They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.

GSM is NOT an upgrade. It is a change.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[jer]

John S. wrote:
>>They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.
>
>
> GSM is NOT an upgrade. It is a change.


Depends on whether you're selling it or buying it, doesn't it?


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

[Stuart Friedman]

Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.

Stu

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In > on 26 Jun 2003
10:07:36
> -0700, (Matt) wrote:
>
> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> >only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> >they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> >or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>
> I would seriously doubt that.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
> CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>
>

[John S.]

>> GSM is NOT an upgrade. It is a change.
>
>Depends on whether you're selling it or buying it, doesn't it?

Probably! :-)

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[John S.]

>Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
>Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.
>

It's not going to happen with GSM. I will be extremely suprised if they do!

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John S." > wrote in message
...
> >Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
> >Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.
> >
>
> It's not going to happen with GSM. I will be extremely suprised if they
do!

Wait, so you're thinking that Cingular will force all their existing
customers
to ante up for new phones, with significantly worse coverage, when they can
go to any other carrier and get a phone for free? I wish Verizon Wireless
were
publicly traded!

What's much more likely is that Cingular will stop selling TDMA, let normal
churn eliminate much of their TDMA customer base, then when the number of
remaining TDMA subscribers is small enough they will require remaining TDMA
customers to convert to GSM. This will likely cause a one-time spike in the
churn rate, but they'll have to weather it.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on Tue, 01 Jul 2003
02:07:41 GMT, "Stuart Friedman" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In > on 26 Jun 2003 10:07:36
>> -0700, (Matt) wrote:
>>
>> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
>> >only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
>> >they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
>> >or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>>
>> I would seriously doubt that.

>Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
>Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.

Different issue -- totally incompatible.


p.s. Please place follow-up material below (not above) quoted material, as
explained in Q7 of "Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings"
<http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nquote.html> (published by the
news.newusers.questions Moderation Board), unless a thread is already using
top posting. (Mixing posting styles in a given thread is confusing.)


p.s. Please see "Address Munging FAQ: Spam-Blocking Your Email Address"
at <http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/mungfaq.html> for the recommended
way to "mung" your email address as a protection against spam.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In nk.net> on Tue, 01 Jul
2003 04:02:05 GMT, self-proclaimed "sfbacellexpert" "Steven M. Scharf"
> wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>
>>>Well as long as Cingular will provide a 6340i or a T62U at no charge to
>>>everyone that they force off of TDMA to GSM, then I guess it's okay.
>
>>It's not going to happen anytime soon, but if and when it does, I expect the
>>phones *will* be free as long as customers sign up for new 2-year
>>contracts.
>
>I expect that this might work IF the phones are GAIT, and if they
>allow roaming onto AT&T's TDMA network.

Probably the former, but probably not the latter.

>It actually may happen
>sooner that anyone expects. Cingular is in a bind (in their TDMA
>markets) because they don't have the spectrum to operate GSM, TDMA,
>and AMPS all at the same time (with sufficient capacity for their
>customer base).

Rubbish.

>If they are not very careful about balancing the
>transistion then look for their disasterous churn rate in California

More rubbish.

>to be duplicated nationwide. They literally could not survive as a
>company if this were to occur.

You tell 'em, Steve. Maybe you'll be the next CEO. ;-)

>BellSouth is already expected to try
>to get out of the venture and make a bid for troubled Sprint.

Citation?

>>>Surely they don't expect to force customers to pay extra in order to
>>>receive the same quality of coverage that they get with TDMA+AMPS.
>
>>They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.
>
>It depends what you define as an upgrade. ...

Yep.

>>>This would almost guarantee massive churn. Cingular in California has
>>>very high churn with their GSM only service ...
>
>>Really? Based on what? Your intuition?
>
>"http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~10834~1439346,00.html"
>
>"According to an internal Cingular memo "Profiling the Killer -- Churn"
>cited in papers filed last month by the <California> PUC's consumer
>protection and safety division, about 19.5 percent of Cingular customers
>ended contracts within 4 to 12 months of initiating service, despite having
>to pay early termination fees. "
>
>Got that?

Got what? Do you have anything more credible, or just 3rd-hand reports?

>Nationwide, annual churn rates (extrapolated from most recently
>available monthly churn rates) are approximately:
>
>Nextel: 20%
>Verizon: 25%
>AT&T: 29%
>Sprint PCS: 32%
>Cingular: 36%
>T-Mobile: 36%

Citation? Or are those your numbers?

SBC posts solid Q1 earnings
TelephonyOnline.com, Apr 24 2003

Cingular -- of which SBC owns a 60% stake -- posted total net income
for the quarter of $421 million, a 13.2% increase year over year. The
unit reported 189,000 net adds, bringing total subscribers to 22.1
million, and reduced customer churn to 2.6%. ...

Hmmm...

SEC filing, 10.4% (4 x 2.6%).

Self-proclaimed "sfbacellexpert" Steven Scharf, 36%.

What to believe? ;-)

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Richard Brittain]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> It's not going to happen anytime soon, but if and when it does, I expect
the
> phones *will* be free as long as customers sign up for new 2-year
contracts.

In Little Rock, AR, Cingular is mailing out "happy anniversary" cards to
existing customers offering a free Sony Ericsson T62u (GAIT) with a new
contract; they are installing GSM850 right now, and should officially launch
it this fall. (That is for all Cingular customers in Arkansas except in
West Memphis, which is on the Memphis system and is already GSM850.) I
expect they'll do at least as much when they finally do pull the plug on
TDMA. (AMPS, too.) --Richard Brittain

[Steven M. Scharf]

"Richard Brittain" <rbbritt@sw(replace with something that rings).net> wrote
in message ...
>
> "John Navas" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > It's not going to happen anytime soon, but if and when it does, I expect
> the
> > phones *will* be free as long as customers sign up for new 2-year
> contracts.
>
> In Little Rock, AR, Cingular is mailing out "happy anniversary" cards to
> existing customers offering a free Sony Ericsson T62u (GAIT) with a new
> contract; they are installing GSM850 right now, and should officially
launch
> it this fall. (That is for all Cingular customers in Arkansas except in
> West Memphis, which is on the Memphis system and is already GSM850.) I
> expect they'll do at least as much when they finally do pull the plug on
> TDMA. (AMPS, too.) --Richard Brittain

If they did the same in California then maybe they could mitigate the
churn rate, but they'd have to allow GSM, TDMA and AMPS roaming
on AT&T at no extra cost because AT&T has a much better network
here.

Maybe they should just merge with AT&T already and get it over with!

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In > on 30 Jun 2003 23:15:31
GMT,
> (John S.) wrote:
>
> >>They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.
> >
> >GSM is NOT an upgrade. It is a change.
>
> Incorrect.

Rubbbish. Not True, Citiations?

Technically it's an overlay and then a conversion. Whether it's a
change, downgrade, or upgrade is subject to each customers
interpretation. Customers that want data services, and that have
not already departed for Sprint or Verizon, will view it as an
upgrade. Customers that are upset about the poorer coverage,
and that don't buy GAIT phones when they switch, will view
it as a downgrade.

It's Cingular's debt rating that is being downgraded as a result of the
TDMA to GSM upgrade <sic>.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In k.net> on Tue, 01 Jul
2003 16:01:18 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In > on 30 Jun 2003 23:15:31 GMT,
>> (John S.) wrote:
>>
>> >>They might, since adding GSM is a significant upgrade.
>> >
>> >GSM is NOT an upgrade. It is a change.
>>
>> Incorrect.
>
>Rubbbish. Not True, Citiations?

<http://www.gsmworld.com/> See GSM specs for the many advantages and
benefits of GSM over TDMA (actually IS-136), including spectral efficiency,
handset selection, SIM, GPRS, MMS, the list goes on and on. See? You learn
something new every day! ;-)

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In k.net> on Tue, 01 Jul
2003 15:52:51 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>
>> >It actually may happen
>> >sooner that anyone expects. Cingular is in a bind (in their TDMA
>> >markets) because they don't have the spectrum to operate GSM, TDMA,
>> >and AMPS all at the same time (with sufficient capacity for their
>> >customer base).
>>
>> Rubbish.
>
>Nice reply. Not true, but typical Navas.

In fact it is true, thanks to coexistence and better spectral efficiency for
GSM, which is why Cingular is pushing customers toward GSM. See
<http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/TDMA_Roadmap_3G_using_GSM_Ericsson.pdf>.
"Up to 90% capacity gain."

Once again you learn something new. ;-)

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on 02 Jul 2003 00:15:51 GMT,
(John S.) wrote:

>>"This reality is especially bothersome to GSM and TDMA operators preparing
>>to offer third-generation wireless services while complying with the FCC's
>>spectrum cap of 45 MHz in large markets.
>
>How old is this article? The spectrum cap went away in January of 2003.

Shhhh...

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John S." > wrote in message
...
> >
> >"This reality is especially bothersome to GSM and TDMA operators
preparing
> >to offer third-generation wireless services while complying with the
FCC's
> >spectrum cap of 45 MHz in large markets.
>
> How old is this article? The spectrum cap went away in January of 2003.

The real issue isn't the spectrum cap it's the necessity to continue
part of the spectrum they already own for AMPS.

Even if there were some spectrum available to buy, Cingular does
not need it for very long. They have enough spectrum for
TDMA+AMPS or GSM+AMPS or TDMA+GSM. What they
don't have is enough spectrum for GSM+TDMA+AMPS all at the
same time, in sufficient amount for a transition where they could
keep TDMA turned on while patiently waiting for existing subscribers
to convert to GSM.

This is the reason they wanted the AMPS requirement dropped
immediately, not in 2007. Without AMPS, they could have had a
much easier transition. The reason Cingular embraced GAIT while
AT&T didn't, is that Cingular needs GAIT much more than AT&T.
If they can get a lot of their users on GAIT phones it makes it much
easier to reduce their TDMA capacity to the bare minimum until the
time when they force people off of TDMA. Since no user who cares
about coverage is going to give up AMPS and TDMA, GAIT is
the only option.

I just wish that there were some AMPS+GSM phones available with
the GSM carriers; even the old analog sleeve concept would be sufficient.

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> >If they did the same in California then maybe they could mitigate the
> >churn rate, but they'd have to allow GSM, TDMA and AMPS roaming
> >on AT&T at no extra cost because AT&T has a much better network
> >here.
>
> Only in your dreams, Steven. ;-)

Citations?

In _every_ independent study on the subject AT&T had the best coverage in
California, with Verizon a close second. Cingular is ALWAYS dead last
(well they are tied for last with T-Mobile). Check Consumer Reports,
and Bay Area Consumer Checkbook. Worse than Nextel, and that's
not an easy task to accomplish!

You should be aware that everyone reading this group realizes that
you know not of what you speak, especially since you never have
any references, citations, or proof of anything. It just doesn't wash,
unless you either work for, or consult for, Cingular. Please tell us
all while you lie so much?

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...

> In fact it is true, thanks to coexistence and better spectral efficiency
for
> GSM, which is why Cingular is pushing customers toward GSM. See
> <http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/TDMA_Roadmap_3G_using_GSM_Ericsson.pdf>.
> "Up to 90% capacity gain."

I think that I'll pass on getting GSM information from a GSM lobbying
group!

>See GSM specs for the many advantages and
>benefits of GSM over TDMA (actually IS-136), including spectral efficiency,
>handset selection, SIM, GPRS, MMS, the list goes on and on. See? You
learn
>something new every day! ;-)

I sure do! Just look at the number of subscribers per cell in the table in
the article below.

http://telephonyonline.com/ar/telecom_analog_remains_albatross/index.htm

Number of subscribers per cell (using 10 MHz of spectrum):
Analog: 176
GSM: 590
TDMA: 1476
CDMA: (1995) 2160
CDMA: (2000) 4368
CDMA: 1x 6960

And don't forget that UMTS will require 4-16 times as many base stations
as GSM; no wonder why it is being delayed indefinitely.

Bottom line is that GSM is NOT more spectrally efficient than TDMA
(technically it is TDMA technology, so this makes sense, I was just
surprised that it's actually less spectrally efficient than existing TDMA).
The U.S. carriers are moving to GSM as an interim step to W-CDMA,
but it's not because GSM is more spectrally efficient.

Fractional GSM offers an improvement in the number of subscribers
per cell, but not even up to the pre-1xRTT CDMA efficiency. And
they could just as easily gone to fractional TDMA.

Let's be perfectly honest here. GSM continues to exist solely because the
European governments forbids their carriers to use CDMA. The carriers
would love to abandon GSM and move to CDMA2000 since they're
eventually going to end up with a variant of CDMA anyway, but they're
licenses forbid it.

http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1353050

The benefits of GSM such as the data capability, the better handsets,
etc., mean nothing to most users whose main worry is whether or not
they can actually use their phone in the places they frequent. Alas,
this is where the whole GSM story falls apart, for now anyway. Do
you have any doubt that the incredibly high churn being experienced by
Cingular's GSM area is being caused by anything other than coverage
issues? It certainly isn't caused by the cost, since Cingular is cheaper
than Verizon or AT&T. It isn't the handsets, since GSM has much nicer
handsets than TDMA or CDMA.

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In k.net> on Wed, 02 Jul
2003 04:32:08 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>
>> In fact it is true, thanks to coexistence and better spectral efficiency for
>> GSM, which is why Cingular is pushing customers toward GSM. See
>> <http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/TDMA_Roadmap_3G_using_GSM_Ericsson.pdf>.
>> "Up to 90% capacity gain."
>
>I think that I'll pass on getting GSM information from a GSM lobbying
>group!

Good point, Steven -- just stick to superficial press commentary and anecdotal
websites that seem to agree with your biases, and you'll be fine. ;-)

>>See GSM specs for the many advantages and
>>benefits of GSM over TDMA (actually IS-136), including spectral efficiency,
>>handset selection, SIM, GPRS, MMS, the list goes on and on. See? You learn
>>something new every day! ;-)
>
>I sure do! [SNIP]

Apparently not.

Rolling along rolling along rolling along
Hm old man vendetta that old man vendetta
He don't say nothing but he must know something
For old man vendetta he just keeps rolling along
He don't plant taters he don't pick cotton
And them that plants em they're soon forgotten
While old man vendetta he jest keeps rolling along

You and me we sweat and strain
Body all aching and racked with pain
Towed that bargem lift the bail
Get a little drunk and you land in jail
In get weary and sick of trying
I'm tired of living and afraid of dying
While old man vendetta he just keeps rolling along


>Just look at the number of subscribers per cell in the table in
>the article below.
>
>[SNIP Qualcomm propaganda]

>And don't forget that UMTS will require 4-16 times as many base stations
>as GSM; no wonder why it is being delayed indefinitely.

Baloney.

>Bottom line is that GSM is NOT more spectrally efficient than TDMA

True -- it's more spectrally efficient than IS-136 (known as TDMA in the USA).
>Let's be perfectly honest here. GSM continues to exist solely because the
>European governments forbids their carriers to use CDMA. The carriers
>would love to abandon GSM and move to CDMA2000 since they're
>eventually going to end up with a variant of CDMA anyway, but they're
>licenses forbid it.

ROTFL!

>... Do
>you have any doubt that the incredibly high churn being experienced by
>Cingular's GSM area ...

As I wrote before...

Citation? Or are those your numbers?

SBC posts solid Q1 earnings
TelephonyOnline.com, Apr 24 2003

Cingular -- of which SBC owns a 60% stake -- posted total net income
for the quarter of $421 million, a 13.2% increase year over year. The
unit reported 189,000 net adds, bringing total subscribers to 22.1
million, and reduced customer churn to 2.6%. ...

Hmmm...

SEC filing, 10.4% (4 x 2.6%).

Self-proclaimed "sfbacellexpert" Steven Scharf, 36%.

What to believe? ;-)

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In k.net> on Wed, 02 Jul
2003 04:25:55 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf" > wrote:

>
>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>
><snip>
>
>> >If they did the same in California then maybe they could mitigate the
>> >churn rate, but they'd have to allow GSM, TDMA and AMPS roaming
>> >on AT&T at no extra cost because AT&T has a much better network
>> >here.
>>
>> Only in your dreams, Steven. ;-)
>
>Citations?

I've posted many. But then I have no personal vendetta.

>... It just doesn't wash,
>unless you either work for, or consult for, Cingular. Please tell us
>all while you lie so much?

Ad hominem. Why am I not surprised.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>
"A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope, 1688-1744]
"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain, 1835-1910]

[Stuart Friedman]

How is TDMA and GSM more compatible? They may have some technology in
common, but the implementation is not compatible.

Stu

"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In > on Tue, 01 Jul 2003
> 02:07:41 GMT, "Stuart Friedman" > wrote:
>
> >"John Navas" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> In > on 26 Jun 2003
10:07:36
> >> -0700, (Matt) wrote:
> >>
> >> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> >> >only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> >> >they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> >> >or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
> >>
> >> I would seriously doubt that.
>
> >Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
> >Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.
>
> Different issue -- totally incompatible.
>
>
> p.s. Please place follow-up material below (not above) quoted material,
as
> explained in Q7 of "Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings"
> <http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nquote.html> (published by the
> news.newusers.questions Moderation Board), unless a thread is already
using
> top posting. (Mixing posting styles in a given thread is confusing.)
>
>
> p.s. Please see "Address Munging FAQ: Spam-Blocking Your Email Address"
> at <http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/mungfaq.html> for the recommended
> way to "mung" your email address as a protection against spam.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
> CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

I think it's very possible that TDMA phones may discontinue working. In our
contracts it states that you may be asked to change your phone if they
change their system. They certainly can do it. Although I'd prefer to not
have to buy a new phone b/c of it.


Steven Scharf > wrote in message
om...
> (Matt) wrote in message
>...
> > Hey all...
> >
> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
> > only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
> > they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
> > or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
> >
> > I don't like the idea of HAVING to pay for something new when they
> > upgrade their technology during a contract... I want a free
> > phone....haha. Thoughts? Confirmations?
>
> I suspect that Cingular has instructed their reps to promote
> GSM and discourage TDMA. There is just no way that Cingular
> is going to turn off TDMA that soon, especially given the
> present GSM coverage, the soon to be a reality number
> portability, and the number of free GSM phones that they's
> have to give out to their existing customers to keep them
> from changing to a carrier with a free phone.
>
> AT&T has been trying to promote GSM over TDMA, with limited
> success. They have to be very careful that they don't sell
> someone a GSM phone and then have them come back during the
> trial period and stop service and switch to Verizon or Sprint
> (rather than to AT&T TDMA). For some reason, AT&T has not
> adopted GAIT.

[Steven M. Scharf]

The original post staded "this summer." Did that mean summer 2003 or
summer 2004.

Surely they won't make you pay for a new phone if it's their decision to
change technologies. I don't think that they should even force you to sign
a new contract to get a free phone, though I expect they'll try this.

> wrote in message news:3f03912d_4@newsfeed...
> I think it's very possible that TDMA phones may discontinue working. In
our
> contracts it states that you may be asked to change your phone if they
> change their system. They certainly can do it. Although I'd prefer to not
> have to buy a new phone b/c of it.

[John S.]

>The original post staded "this summer." Did that mean summer 2003 or
>summer 2004.
>

duhhhhh...... ummmmmm........

I know, I know, any question asked is not a "stupd" question but this comes
very close.

Summer 2003 is the correct answer. "Next" summer is the summer of 2004 right
now.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John S." > wrote in message
...
> >The original post staded "this summer." Did that mean summer 2003 or
> >summer 2004.
> >
>
> duhhhhh...... ummmmmm........
>
> I know, I know, any question asked is not a "stupd" question but this
comes
> very close.
>
> Summer 2003 is the correct answer. "Next" summer is the summer of 2004
right
> now.
>
> --
> John S.
> e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[Steven M. Scharf]

"John S." > wrote in message
...

> I know, I know, any question asked is not a "stupd" question but this
comes
> very close.
>
> Summer 2003 is the correct answer. "Next" summer is the summer of 2004
right
> now.

I was fairly sure that the original poster must have meant "this coming
summer,"
since summer 2003 had already arrived when he posted. It's highly unlikely
that
in the next 11 weeks that Cingular could make such a big transition, they
haven't
even turned on GSM in some areas yet, and yet by the end of summer they'll
replace millions of phones?!

Now if during the Spring the original post had said "this summer" it would
have been perfectly clear.

[Todd Allcock]

John Navas > wrote in message >...

> <http://www.gsmworld.com/> See GSM specs for the many advantages and
> benefits of GSM over TDMA (actually IS-136), including spectral efficiency,
> handset selection, SIM, GPRS, MMS, the list goes on and on. See? You learn
> something new every day! ;-)

You need to look at it from the customer's POV. A dumb analogy might be the
hypothetical invention of a self-slicing pickle. McDonald's would see it as an
upgrade, but the consumer of a Big Mac would probably care less.

"Spectral efficiency" doesn't impress a customer when he's in a dead spot.

GSM is not an "upgrade" for everyone. I like it from a gadety point-of-view,
but having recently made 3 round-trip car trips from KC to Denver, my GSM
phone spent a lot of time working soley as a impressive looking digital clock.

My TDMA/AMPS phones never skipped a beat, however.

Again, nothing against GSM, but it's a big country out there between the
two coasts, and GSM hasn't made it on a "national" basis yet, and probably
won't for years. (And before someone yells "GAIT phone!", let me remind
them "handset selection" was listed as a GSM advantage- GAIT slims that
down to what, two?)

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on 4 Jul 2003 11:49:14
-0700, (Todd Allcock) wrote:

>John Navas > wrote in message >...
>
>> <http://www.gsmworld.com/> See GSM specs for the many advantages and
>> benefits of GSM over TDMA (actually IS-136), including spectral efficiency,
>> handset selection, SIM, GPRS, MMS, the list goes on and on. See? You learn
>> something new every day! ;-)
>
>You need to look at it from the customer's POV.

OK, let's do that.

>"Spectral efficiency" doesn't impress a customer when he's in a dead spot.

True, but "spectral efficiency" makes dead spots less likely. It also lowers
costs and decreases the chances of network busies and dropped calls, which are
also worthwhile from the customers POV.

>GSM is not an "upgrade" for everyone. I like it from a gadety point-of-view,
>but having recently made 3 round-trip car trips from KC to Denver, my GSM
>phone spent a lot of time working soley as a impressive looking digital clock.
>
>My TDMA/AMPS phones never skipped a beat, however.

The problem, of course, is that TDMA/AMPS can't be sustained as a business
model.

>Again, nothing against GSM, but it's a big country out there between the
>two coasts, and GSM hasn't made it on a "national" basis yet, and probably
>won't for years. (And before someone yells "GAIT phone!", let me remind
>them "handset selection" was listed as a GSM advantage- GAIT slims that
>down to what, two?)

Both of which are excellent.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John S.]

>But you know what? Two is really enough for most people that only
>want to talk on their phones and aren't interested in a whiz bang
>handset.

What, you mean that people sometimes don't want a phone to be a phone??? What,
a paper weight maybe.....?

If you can't make and receive calls there really is no reason to pay a monthly
fee for phone service.


--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on Thu, 03 Jul 2003
23:22:04 GMT, "Stuart Friedman" > wrote:

>"John Navas" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In > on Tue, 01 Jul 2003
>> 02:07:41 GMT, "Stuart Friedman" > wrote:
>>
>> >"John Navas" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> In > on 26 Jun 2003 10:07:36
>> >> -0700, (Matt) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Here in Detroit, I was told that Cingular will be converted to
>> >> >only GSM and TDMA phones will no longer work. They are not sure if
>> >> >they are going to give new, free GSM phones to existing TDMA customers
>> >> >or just offer them a good deal on a new one.
>> >>
>> >> I would seriously doubt that.

that = "TDMA phones will no longer work".

TDMA will probably continue operating for years to come to support existing
handsets, which will be mostly retired through natural attrition (churn and
obsolescence). Since GSM is the future direction and gives Cingular greater
capacity, *new* subscribers will get GSM rather than TDMA phones. But that's
a long way from the claim that *existing* customers will immediately be forced
to switch handsets.

>> >Two years ago, when Ameritech (the predecessor of Cingular) converted
>> >Detroit from CDMA to TDMA, they did give away phones.
>>
>> Different issue -- totally incompatible.

>How is TDMA and GSM more compatible? They may have some technology in
>common, but the implementation is not compatible.

GSM can be overlaid on an existing TDMA network, and portions of the
infrastructure can be shared.


p.s. Please place follow-up material below (not above) quoted material, as
explained in Q7 of "Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings"
<http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nquote.html> (published by the
news.newusers.questions Moderation Board), unless a thread is already using
top posting. (Mixing posting styles in a given thread is confusing.)


--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[Bill Radio]

There is a far more practical reason Cingular not be shutting down their
TDMA, or even their analog network, anytime soon...roaming revenue. Would
they seriously consider kissing off millions in roaming charges? There are
many TDMA carriers who will NOT require their customers to give up their
TDMA handsets, and they will want to throw lots of money at Cingular for
years to roam on their TDMA network.

This doesn't mean Cingular won't ask their TDMA customers to switch to GSM.
But if I wanted to stay with the TDMA network, knowing it won't be going
away, soon, I'd somehow 'lose' any notification of a phone change. However,
if they were to send me a free phone, and throw in a few extra minutes, I
might be swayed...IF the coverage was equal.

Bill Radio
Click for Western U.S. Wireless Reviews at:
http://www.mountainwireless.com

"Joseph" > wrote in message
...
>
> TDMA will *not* be shut down likely for at least another 7 to 10 years
> if then. Why would they shut down a system that works well now in
> favor of a system that has many growing pains not to mention that has
> many holes in it. Since cingular doesn't even have their whole system
> deployed with GSM yet how can anyone even talk about dismantling their
> present system.
>
> Even should they dismantle the TDMA system (as they won't) they would
> be stupid not to provide customers with replacement phones.
>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on Sun, 6 Jul 2003 23:17:10
-0600, "Bill Radio" > wrote:

>There is a far more practical reason Cingular not be shutting down their
>TDMA, or even their analog network, anytime soon...roaming revenue. Would
>they seriously consider kissing off millions in roaming charges? There are
>many TDMA carriers who will NOT require their customers to give up their
>TDMA handsets, and they will want to throw lots of money at Cingular for
>years to roam on their TDMA network.
>
>This doesn't mean Cingular won't ask their TDMA customers to switch to GSM.
>But if I wanted to stay with the TDMA network, knowing it won't be going
>away, soon, I'd somehow 'lose' any notification of a phone change. However,
>if they were to send me a free phone, and throw in a few extra minutes, I
>might be swayed...IF the coverage was equal.

That sounds good, but Cingular is tight on spectrum, and needs to convert TDMA
to GSM in order to increase capacity. Roaming fees are probably secondary.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/> HELP PAGES FOR
CINGULAR GSM + ERICSSON PHONES: <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[John Navas]

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In > on 02 Jul 2003 00:15:51 GMT,
(John S.) wrote:

>>"This reality is especially bothersome to GSM and TDMA operators preparing
>>to offer third-generation wireless services while complying with the FCC's
>>spectrum cap of 45 MHz in large markets.
>
>How old is this article? The spectrum cap went away in January of 2003.

Shhhh...

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>