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View Full Version : Re: Sprint internal memos about Vision!!!


Eric Witte
June 22nd 03, 07:53 PM
Jerome Zelinske > wrote in message >...
> All that matters is what the current Ts and Cs says.
>
Not unless the original terms say that the terms are subject to change
without notice. I do not see that anywhere in the current TOS. You
have to agree to the new terms before they can enforce them. Plus
even the current TOS does not explicitly say you are not allowed to
connect such devices. Just that they are not available. Legally the
way it is worded they can not enforce it. Even if that is what they
mean it needs to be in clear English that would not be open to debate.
They have to also state that using such devices would be a violation
of your contract.

Eric

JRW
June 22nd 03, 08:59 PM
O/Siris wrote:
> Basically, yes. So far, I don't think anyone is looking for you, but it
> *is* against the terms and conditions of the Advantage Agreement.

That should read "it is against terms and conditions of the *NEW*
Advantage Agreement," because it wasn't there several months ago.

dstrauss
June 23rd 03, 03:23 AM
Starwars:

Good analysis, and I agree with you on every thing but one point - why
can't we use Vision with any PDA? What in heaven's name is the
difference between an i330, Treo 300, Treo 600, i500, i700, whatever.
For example, the new HP 2215 with the Sprint CF card would be ideal.

--
Posted at SprintUsers.com - Your place for everything Sprint PCS
Free wireless access @ www.SprintUsers.com/wap

JAC
June 23rd 03, 03:34 AM
So what does Sprint do when nearly everyone in the stores and most
people on their customer care line give directly opposite information
to customers?

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 03:10:11 GMT, O/Siris >
wrote:

>In article >,
>says...
>> If possible, would anyone be willing to post any
>> Sprint internal memos that address this issue?
>>
>
>From a legal standpoint, our stance is pretty cut and dried at
>
>http://tinyurl.com/eidw
>
>Read the paragraphs there about PCS Vision, and you'll find a statement
>that specifically excludes Vision add-on packages from including use
>with a PC, PDA, or other computing device.

Lawrence G. Mayka
June 23rd 03, 11:24 AM
"O/Siris" > wrote in message
. ..
> Correct our reps who are saying it. Unfortunately, it isn't going to
> happen overnight, because, frankly, are you really going to call back
> and report a rep who just told you what you wanted to hear?

You're missing the point. The government has graciously granted Sprint PCS the
status of a corporation--i.e., a legal "person." This status has multivarious
benefits, but it comes with one great responsibility: Any action by a
designated representative of Sprint PCS is an action of that one legal "person."
It is not good enough to say, "That rep was wrong"; Sprint has to stand by what
that rep said, because that rep(resentative) legally *was* Sprint.

JRW
June 24th 03, 02:24 AM
Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> My reply was directly to your last post. That is what I did not
> think so about. I did not miss your point. I do not agree with you. Go
> ahead and try. I think you would be wasting your time. Even if you
> found a lawyer to initially take the case, you will get nowhere.

Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific terms
and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a later date.
If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and wish to terminate
my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early termination...is this
what you are saying?

"Ah doan tink so..." <-- John Leguizamo, "From Too Wong Foo, Thanks For
Everything:

O/Siris
June 24th 03, 11:08 AM
In article >, techguy71-at-
says...
> Correcting Sprint reps isn't my job. Personally, I think Sprint was
> telling people what they wanted to hear to sell Vision.
>=20

No, it's not. But that doesn't mean we don't need your help to get this=20
corrected. And, admittedly, we've done a terrible job of giving you an=20
incentive to help us. Possibly for the very reason you cited above. We=20
were selling it.

--=20
R=D8=DF
O/Siris
-+-
I work for Sprint,
I *don't* speak for them.

Jerome Zelinske
June 24th 03, 12:39 PM
Yes.


JRW wrote:
> Jerome Zelinske wrote:
>
>> My reply was directly to your last post. That is what I did not
>> think so about. I did not miss your point. I do not agree with you.
>> Go ahead and try. I think you would be wasting your time. Even if
>> you found a lawyer to initially take the case, you will get nowhere.
>
>
> Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific terms
> and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a later date.
> If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and wish to terminate
> my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early termination...is this
> what you are saying?
>
> "Ah doan tink so..." <-- John Leguizamo, "From Too Wong Foo, Thanks For
> Everything:
>

Bob Smith
June 24th 03, 02:17 PM
Curt Crandall wrote:
> Let me share a few things I heard today from a couple of techs at
> Sprint.
>
> First, apparently the reason for the change in TOS regarding
> PDA/Laptop usage with Vision-enabled phones was due to a couple of
> guys in SoCal
> that downloaded tons of crap and crippled the network. SoCal
> continues
> to have bandwidth problems because so many people are using Vision to
> send emails, photos, etc.
>
> They also said that they cannot disable the #777 number which people
> use to connect as a modem as it's needed by the other vision services.
>
> Connection kits are not supported, but they'll tell you do go to Radio
> Shack and pick one up. You can continue to use the phone as a
> laptop/PDA modem, but your usage is monitored. If you "abuse" the
> service, you will be sent a letter saying you need to upgrade your
> vision service or go per KB.
>
> The term "abuse" is not defined, although one tech said the limit is
> about 25MB/mo. I think that's very low as I'd like to use my phone to
> download CPAN modules while on the road and hacking programs... some
> of those modules require libs that are fairly large (i.e. Tk). That,
> combined with emails, ssh sessions, web surfing, file transfers,
> etc...
> I would easily go over 25MB/mo.

So, let me ask you Curt.Why not use a local dial up pop, provided through
RR, instead of using your phone? I know that RR, for our area, offers
nationwide dial ups. Yours probably does too. What's stopping you from using
the ones in your area when you are on the road.

Bob

Donkey Agony
June 24th 03, 04:45 PM
Jerome Zelinske wrote:

>> Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific terms
>> and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a later
>> date. If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and wish to
>> terminate my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early
>> termination...is this what you are saying?

> Yes.

I take it neither English nor Law were your specialties in college.

That the party you defend with patriotic and religious fervor might be
guilty of breach-of-contract doesn't seem to bother you, and instead
elicits a single "Yes" without explanation, is I'd say, well,
disgusting. To say the least. ...

--
da
~~
"OE Quotefix" http://flash.to/oe-quotefix
to fix Outlook Express' broken quoting.

Donkey Agony
June 24th 03, 04:46 PM
JRW wrote:

>>> Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific
>>> terms and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a
>>> later date. If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and
>>> wish to terminate my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early
>>> termination...is this what you are saying?

>> Yes.

> I can see that legal experience is not your forte.

I can see that snipping and quoting in context is not yours.

Exhibit A:
------------------------------------------------------------
Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> Yes.
>
>
> JRW wrote:
>
>> Jerome Zelinske wrote:
>>
>>> My reply was directly to your last post. That is what I did
not
>>> think so about. I did not miss your point. I do not agree with
you.
>>> Go ahead and try. I think you would be wasting your time. Even if
>>> you found a lawyer to initially take the case, you will get nowhere.
>>
>> Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific terms
>> and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a later
date.
>> If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and wish to
>> terminate my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early
>> termination...is this what you are saying?
>>
>> "Ah doan tink so..." <-- John Leguizamo, "From Too Wong Foo, Thanks
>> For Everything

I can see that legal experience is not your forte.

------------------------------------------------------------

--
da
~~
"OE Quotefix" http://flash.to/oe-quotefix
to fix Outlook Express' broken quoting.

Bob Smith
June 24th 03, 05:12 PM
Curt Crandall wrote:
> Three reasons:
>
> 1.) I have a Mac and they currently do not support Macs for dialup.
> They use a Windows script that connects to AOL's service.

Didn't know that ... So, then ... there is no work around to dial up while
on the road?

>
> 2.) POP is mail only... I need to do a LOT more than just mail.

Nope ... POP, is a point of presence ... i.e.: a local dial up.
>
> 3.) I do not want to waste airtime dailing a 3rd party ISP.

If that dial up is affiliated with RR, to where you aren't charged another
nickel ... who cares?

>
> T-Mobile will give me unlimited Internet usage with NO restrictions
> for
> an additional $19.99/mo on top of my nationwide voice plan which gives
> me more minutes for less $$$ than SPCS. The only thing I give up is
> coverage since they do not support analog. However, if their broucher
> is correctly, it'll actually cover more area that I use than SPCS.
> That's why I'm probably going to make the switch.

Good Luck. I too would be interested how that works several months into your
plan to see if they cut you off with all those large downloads you plan on
doing ...

Bob

Curt Crandall
June 24th 03, 07:34 PM
Sorry about point 2... I was thinking about something totally different.

I'm not getting your rebuttal to point 3, though. I must be
misunderstanding something. To clarify my point, while I know RR's
dialup is fairly cheap to use, I don't want to use the airtime I have on
my voice plan up by dialing an ISP. Plus, I'm not sure if you'd just
get dumped into the regular 14.4KB/s service. I honestly just don't
know how it'd work and so far no one at Sprint seems to know either.

So, if I dial an ISP with my SPCS Vision-enabled phone and connected it
to a laptop, what would I get?

I just checked into T-Mobile a bit more... unfortnately, their coverage
map is VERY inaccurate. An area I am very concerned about was clearly
marked as in network when in actuality is wasn't. I'm glad I made those
3 extra 30min phone calls to T-Mobile to confirm that.

Now I don't know what to do about getting a cell plan. No one seems to
fit the bill... Sprint probably comes the closest. So, I guess I'll
have to take my chances using the phone as a modem and hope a better
plan comes along in a year.

"Bob Smith" > wrote in article
nk.net>:
> Curt Crandall wrote:
> > Three reasons:
> >
> > 1.) I have a Mac and they currently do not support Macs for dialup.
> > They use a Windows script that connects to AOL's service.
>
> Didn't know that ... So, then ... there is no work around to dial up while
> on the road?
>
> >
> > 2.) POP is mail only... I need to do a LOT more than just mail.
>
> Nope ... POP, is a point of presence ... i.e.: a local dial up.
> >
> > 3.) I do not want to waste airtime dailing a 3rd party ISP.
>
> If that dial up is affiliated with RR, to where you aren't charged another
> nickel ... who cares?
>
> >
> > T-Mobile will give me unlimited Internet usage with NO restrictions
> > for
> > an additional $19.99/mo on top of my nationwide voice plan which gives
> > me more minutes for less $$$ than SPCS. The only thing I give up is
> > coverage since they do not support analog. However, if their broucher
> > is correctly, it'll actually cover more area that I use than SPCS.
> > That's why I'm probably going to make the switch.
>
> Good Luck. I too would be interested how that works several months into your
> plan to see if they cut you off with all those large downloads you plan on
> doing ...
>
> Bob
>
>

[posted via phonescoop.com - free web access to the alt.cellular groups]

Curt Crandall
June 24th 03, 07:38 PM
As I just posted in another reply, I decided not to go with T-Mobile.
However, a co-worker made the switch and when I see how it goes for him,
I'll be happy to let everyone else know.

While I really wanted the Nokia 3650, and love the unlimited data plan,
the coverage just didn't fit my requirements. If only they had better
GSM coverage and analog support... if only. :(

"Donkey Agony" ]> wrote in article
>:
> Curt Crandall wrote:
>
> > T-Mobile will give me unlimited Internet usage with NO restrictions
> for
> > an additional $19.99/mo on top of my nationwide voice plan which gives
> > me more minutes for less $$$ than SPCS. The only thing I give up is
> > coverage since they do not support analog. However, if their broucher
> > is correctly, it'll actually cover more area that I use than SPCS.
> > That's why I'm probably going to make the switch.
>
> Please post back here after you've made the switch. I'm curious as to
> how it stacks up. I know T-Mobile is going to be slower (30-40 average
> kbps from what I've heard vs. 50-70 average kbps with Sprint), but the
> no restrictions and unlimited bandwidth is appealing.
>
>
> --
> da
> ~~
> "OE Quotefix" http://flash.to/oe-quotefix
> to fix Outlook Express' broken quoting.
>
>

[posted via phonescoop.com - free web access to the alt.cellular groups]

JRW
June 24th 03, 07:47 PM
Donkey Agony wrote:
> I can see that legal experience is not your forte.

You should want I repeat the entire thread????
<snicker>

Bob Smith
June 24th 03, 09:29 PM
Apparently Curt, there are several confusing issues here. Answers below.

Curt Crandall wrote:
> Sorry about point 2... I was thinking about something totally
> different.
>
> I'm not getting your rebuttal to point 3, though. I must be
> misunderstanding something. To clarify my point, while I know RR's
> dialup is fairly cheap to use, I don't want to use the airtime I have
> on
> my voice plan up by dialing an ISP.

I'm not talking about dialing out through your phone, but through the
landline and the modem in your laptop. It shouldn't be any additional
expense to use the local ISP pop that RR has their agreement with. You could
only use the older WW option to dial out of your phone to a local ISP, and
you said you have Vision on your account.

> Plus, I'm not sure if you'd just
> get dumped into the regular 14.4KB/s service. I honestly just don't
> know how it'd work and so far no one at Sprint seems to know either.

I've been getting 26 to 53K speeds from dialing out of a motel / hotel's
landline to the local pop.
>
> So, if I dial an ISP with my SPCS Vision-enabled phone and connected
> it
> to a laptop, what would I get?

If you are on Vision, you won't be able to connect to another ISP, unless
you have the 5350 ...
>
> I just checked into T-Mobile a bit more... unfortnately, their
> coverage
> map is VERY inaccurate. An area I am very concerned about was clearly
> marked as in network when in actuality is wasn't. I'm glad I made
> those 3 extra 30min phone calls to T-Mobile to confirm that.
>
> Now I don't know what to do about getting a cell plan. No one seems
> to
> fit the bill... Sprint probably comes the closest. So, I guess I'll
> have to take my chances using the phone as a modem and hope a better
> plan comes along in a year.

If you do switch, keep us up to date.

Bob

Jerome Zelinske
June 25th 03, 01:10 AM
You will not have a problem. Sprint PCS views a Sprint PCS Treo
300 as a phone. As such it qualifies for the "PCS Free & Clear Plans
with Vision". Meaning unlimited data.


Anonymous wrote:
>>The term "abuse" is not defined, although one tech said the limit is
>>about 25MB/mo. I think that's very low as I'd like to use my phone to
>>download CPAN modules while on the road and hacking programs... some of
>>those modules require libs that are fairly large (i.e. Tk). That,
>>combined with emails, ssh sessions, web surfing, file transfers, etc...
>>I would easily go over 25MB/mo.
>
>
>
> I certainly hope that you are wrong about this.
>
> I never hook my phone up to my computer. As a matter of fact, I do not even own a cable which
> would do such a thing.
>
> I do, however, have a Sprint-branded Treo 300.
>
> I also have Snappermail, QuickOffice, and AcidImage installed on my handheld. What does this mean?
> It means that I send and receive Office Documents and Image files very frequently. I'm also on
> several mailing lists where people can be quite verbose. I push/pull probably 10Megs+ of email
> each week alone through my Treo. This does not even account for my Instant Messaging and Web
> Surfing via Blazer or EudoraMail.
>
> I don't feel that I am abusing Vision, and nowhere in the TOS does it say that I am. This is
> exactly the reason why I got the Treo and PCS service.
>
> Arbitrary limits on "unlimited" usage need to be disclosed.
>

Benjamin P. Volk
June 25th 03, 09:26 AM
Well, the problem here isn't going to be so much that the law's not on your
side, because it is. The problem is that the cost isn't enough to justify
the hassle of filing the lawsuits.

"JRW" > wrote in message
y.com...
> Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> > Yes.
> >
> >
> > JRW wrote:
> >
> >> Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> >>
> >>> My reply was directly to your last post. That is what I did not
> >>> think so about. I did not miss your point. I do not agree with you.
> >>> Go ahead and try. I think you would be wasting your time. Even if
> >>> you found a lawyer to initially take the case, you will get nowhere.
> >>
> >> Let me see if I understand you. I sign a contract with specific terms
> >> and conditions. Sprint changes the terms and conditions at a later
date.
> >> If I do not agree to the new terms and conditions and wish to
> >> terminate my contract, Sprint will penalize me for an early
> >> termination...is this what you are saying?
> >>
> >> "Ah doan tink so..." <-- John Leguizamo, "From Too Wong Foo, Thanks
> >> For Everything
>
> I can see that legal experience is not your forte.
>
>
>

O/Siris
June 25th 03, 10:25 AM
In article >, =20
says...
> I honestly just don't
> know how it'd work and so far no one at Sprint seems to know either.
>=20
> So, if I dial an ISP with my SPCS Vision-enabled phone and connected it
> to a laptop, what would I get?
>=20
>=20

You'd get a charge for 39=A2/min. The system recognizes the connection as=
=20
a CSD connection, and drops you into Wireless Web mode. And since=20
Wireless Web billing can't be provisioned on a Vision phone...

--=20
R=D8=DF
O/Siris
-+-
I work for Sprint,
I *don't* speak for them.

O/Siris
June 25th 03, 10:28 AM
In article .org>,=20
says...
> No wonder people are confused. Sprint SOLD the things that people are us=
ing. Man, that's kind of=20
> a hard position to defend from Sprint's point of view.
>=20

You are exactly right. As hard as I'm working to explain Sprint's=20
position, I am *not* saying I agree with it. This has bugged me enough=20
that I've been making noise about it, trying to figure it all out.

Whether or not it's legal, or tenable, or feasible, what I'm giving out=20
is exactly what I understand our position to be.

--=20
R=D8=DF
O/Siris
-+-
I work for Sprint,
I *don't* speak for them.

Michael Lynch
June 25th 03, 06:03 PM
"O/Siris" > wrote in message
. ..
> You are exactly right. As hard as I'm working to explain
> Sprint's position, I am *not* saying I agree with it.
> This has bugged me enough that I've been making noise
> about it, trying to figure it all out.

OK, you're back to being credible again. ^_^


--
Mike

O/Siris
June 25th 03, 06:15 PM
In article >,=20
says...
> OK, you're back to being credible again. ^_^
>=20

Hehehe, wouldn't want to be accused of being a shill, now, would I?

We can argue all day long about what *should be* or what "the right=20
thing" to do would be. All I'm really trying to do, as best I can, is=20
state what *is*.

--=20
R=D8=DF
O/Siris
-+-
I work for Sprint,
I *don't* speak for them.

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